It's been almost two years since I last wrote about Family Tree DNA and thought I'd check in and explore how I'm doing so far (You can see my first post about FTDNA here...just don't laugh because it was also my very first blog post). It looks like FTDNA is now up to over 204000 records as of July 17, 2008. My haplogroup was updated and is now E1b1b1b2 because the Y-chromosome tree changed. FTDNA has also added some cool maps allowing you to pinpoint where potential DNA cousins come from...Here are my 25 marker Y-DNA and high resolution mtDNA maps. I still have no matches I would call a verifiable genealogical possibility.
While my Y-DNA test has enlightened me somewhat on the origin of my paternal family, it has also puzzled me. According to my haplogroup, my paternal family is of North African origin (Berber specifically). This makes complete sense because of the Muslim expansion across the Mediterranean into Spain and Southern Italy. Most of the matches I've received come from people with Spanish or Arabic sounding names completely in line with my haplogroup and my understanding of the history of the Mediterranean world. The puzzling part is represented by the red markers as shown in the 25 marker Y-DNA map in the link above.
If you look closely at the map you'll see a red marker hovering over what is now Poland. These represent eight exact matches for every value on a 25 marker test (I took the 37 marker test, but have received no matches). The orange and yellow also represent 25 marker matches, but have a genetic distances of one and two (this means one or two of the markers are different). Every match here has the same surname except for me - it's very Germanic and the earliest known ancestor was born in Prussia in the mid 1700s. How can I have exact DNA matches with a family appearing to originate in Northern Europe, but have a haplogroup predominately from the Western Mediterranean?
I can understand if those matches had my last name...or I had theirs, but how can I account for the same exact haplogroup, two completely different last names with known family origins so far apart (mine in Italy and my 25 marker matches in Prussia)? I did get an email from one of those matches who asked how I felt being the only one in the group with a different last name. I responded with a bunch of questions, but never got a response. So now I begin to wonder if a mistake was made in the DNA tests, but that doesn't make any sense because FTDNA would have to commit the same mistake 9 different times and I find this unlikely. I guess the family of my matches could have left Southern Italy before the advent of surnames, moved to Prussia and assumed a Germanic surname over time. I kind of discount that possibility because peasants rarely made moves as drastic as this. I did write a post about a theory on the origin of my last name, but those Prussian matches kind of complicate the whole thing. I just find it hard to figure out how my haplogroup could end up in Prussia...
Another unsolvable genealogy mystery. This is the frustrating part of family history - the more you learn, the less you know. If this keeps up I will be completely ignorant fairly soon.
Fred,
I never considered your suggestion about more ancient population movements. It sounds reasonable.
I appreciate the comment and the link!
Posted by: tim agazio | May 07, 2009 at 10:51 AM
With Y-DNA there is no mixing. You are looking at the result of discrete evernts--mutations.
If you want to know how the sub-groups are related, you have to get more data and make a phylogenetic tree. This would suggest sequence and timing of the mutations.
Have look at some of the papers at http://jogg.info/ to see how they do it.
You should consider more ancient population movements. At least 10,000 years ago, northern Europe briefly returned to glacial conditions. Possibly Mediterranean people did not return to northern Europe in significant numbers until 6,000 or so years ago and then via the Balkans or the Danube, carrying a variant of your haplotype.
Posted by: Fred Colbourne | May 07, 2009 at 10:37 AM
I have another suggestion. It is possible that someone from Southern Europe could have ended up in Germany because of more recent wars than those fought by the Romans. As and example, when Napolean Bonaparte left Russia in 1812 and returned to France his coalition fell apart. There were estimated to be 1,000,000 French soldiers who were left in Germany. Who knows how many Italians were in the French Army? Napolean himself was Italian.
There have been in Europe, numerous wars throughout the last 500 years in which mercenaries made up the bulk of the armies. It is not impossible that someone from southern europe hired themselves out as mercenaries.
There were religious movements in Europe. The Waldensians were a religious group from the medieval period. Italian Waldensians found refuge in Piedmont in the mountains and the movement survived there. Eventually they were defeated and the survivors originally made there way to Germany where many stayed and others went to Switzerland.
I don't think that any of these suggestions answer definitively how this DNA mystery came to be. However, keep in mind that the remains of a man were found in China whose DNA proved to be that of a Kurd from the Middle East.
People move around quite a bit.
Posted by: Iginio | April 03, 2009 at 11:11 PM
Tim,
It seems though more likely that your ancestor was captured in Northern Europe and returned to Rome where he was possibly a slave or similar. A little ancient history study re Roman Legions would be helpful.
My father now aged 94 just submitted YDNA sample 67 marker test. Exact match with family of a different surname from Friesland and Netherlands.
34/36 with 4 members of a family with a similar surname. There are only about 200,000 samples submitted to date...wait awhile and it will become a lot more interesting once this dna submission becomes more of a trend , which it surely will do.
The matches dad received matches with what we know about our progenitor to Scotland via clan history. My father is Scottish.
Hard to get ones head around relatives popping up from so far back in time whereby we are so used to seeking out those 1700-1800-1900 circa.
Weird feeling. Haplogroup research must be fascinating..
Posted by: Alexandrina | September 23, 2008 at 11:12 AM
It might be useful to email with Blaine Bettinger and see what he can figure out about your mystery. It's a good one!
It's not too far-fetched to visualize one of your Berber-Italian ancestors having a brother who marched off with the Roman legions to conquer the barbarians in northern Europe and becoming captivated by a young woman's charms. Voila - your Prussian cousins!
There would certianly be some mutations over 2,000 years to the extent that your 25-marker test matches exactly but your 37-marker test doesn't.
Cheers -- Randy
Posted by: Randy Seaver | July 17, 2008 at 11:55 AM